 |
| Page 1 2 3 | << Prev Topic Next Topic >> |
| Author | Comment |
Dexterc
 SFUK member (9/19/00 7:37:12 am) 199.89.64.38 Reply | Edit | Del |
Just a
thought
Take a good look at the image on the back of the CA Tee. One guy under another guy with the guy on top forcing himself on the guy underneath. The guy underneath looks a little uncomfortable doesn't he? He almost looks like he might be taking something he wasn't expecting and it aint a choke! That hold looks more like a nelson to me and anyone who's been with a difficult partner knows what those are good for! I vote to make choke athletic submit Tshirts the official Tshirt of the Gay Games!! SUBMIT boy before I tear you a new ass hole!! you my bubba now!
|
droc
 SFUK member (9/19/00 8:36:28 am) 193.120.120.2 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Just
a thought
LDrocsFAO That's Funny as Dexter, What's going on here, on the other hand, isn't! Choke just come clean! If ya Smelllllllllllll what Droc is distillin'
|
| Guru1 SFUK member (9/19/00 8:58:46 am) 195.92.32.83 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Just
a thought
SFUKING, Choke are a business. Ofcourse they want exclusivity at a show, its just common sense, surely? You pay a promoter money and he says "you have exclusivity" then all of a sudden someone else comes along selling the same product you do, arent you going to be a little annoyed? You had a deal and paid money, so in effect you've been lied to right?, so infact the promoter had done something wrong. It wouldnt have mattered whether it was SFUK, Tap Out or Marks & Sparks. You have to draw a line between helping a sport grow and helping a company grow. Helping the sport grow is sponsoring fighters, meeting people, offering help when it is needed, advice and so on, something which the guys at Choke are always willing to do. The way this has escalated you would think that Choke has gone out and buggered the Queen? It was a mistake guys, bad judgement, over zealousness, whatever, but from this one error you have decided that they are oh so evil when to be honest, you dont know the first thing about them, have never dealt with them and have no idea what so ever as to what they have done to date and what they have lined up for the future. You have people on this forum willing to jump on the bandwagon and chastise(sp?) Choke yet at the same time there happy to offer them space at their shows and enjoy a healthy cut of any profits made? Everyone is entitled to an opinion on this, it involves all of us in one way or another, but lets try and keep it in proportion. This has been a mistake by Choke and im sure when he comes back from the States he will speak to the guys at SFUK directly and im sure this can all be resolved. Julian.
|
| SFUK SFUK Staff (9/19/00 9:21:37 am) 195.171.139.197 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Just
a thought
Good morning Julian, You're full of beans this morning. That's good. On the topic of exclusivity, it's strange that a company that claims, "We want to work with anybody ", would ask for exclusivity. Especially as they knew we would be there with T shirts well before hand. Yes, we corresponded on that, and also talked about it on the video interview. Again, we agreed there was plenty of room for everyone. Choke also arranged to meet at Iron Man & talk about getting shorts made. I just find that odd. If we wanted to get some, say hats made by a company we sure wouldn't want to cut them out of an event they were attending. As for the numerous employees, russians, brazilians, indians and chinese that spend their time posting on here from 5 PC's that's even stranger. Especially as one of the IP's must be a home PC. And that IP is present in all the screen names listed. ie all these employees and foreign vistors also sneak back to someone else's house to fill their craving for posting on SFUK. The sadly ironic thing is Choke Athletic will do grand on it's own merit. Their products are not in dispute from us here anyway. Their stuff is good enough to sell without having to spam and troll SFUK. SFUK
|
| Guru1 SFUK member (9/19/00 9:38:48 am) 195.92.32.83 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Re:
Just a thought
Morning dude, its grey, raining and Tuesday, whyon earth would i no be full o beans???.lol Looking forward to the UFC man, going to be a good one! Ok, you can work with lots of people, whether promoters, fighters, designers etc, etc but when it comes to selling your stuff, making money, your out for yourself man, you know that. If you had paid money to the promoter and you were told that you had exclusivity and then all of a sudden, someone else, irrelevent as to who they were came along and stared selling the same stuff, wouldnt you be a bit miffed? you know you would. Being told that you must pay X amount to sell your goods and that you would be the only ones there selling those goods is a little different than "Offering a promoter money to keep competition away" ??? I dont know Chokes IP,s and that really something you need to chat with him about and im sure you will, i cant comment on that (you know i'd love to if i could!!.lol) I see your point SFUK and i hope between you and Choke it can be sorted out. I hope we also see an end to all the double standards & band wagon jumping shown on this thread by certain individuals, you know who you are!! Julian
|
| SFUK SFUK Staff (9/19/00 9:50:53 am) 195.171.139.197 Reply | Edit | Del |
"your
out for yourself man"
Fair enough Julian, Them beans must be good! "your out for yourself man" You might be. I don't agree with you, but you're a tenacious little PR man aren't you? LOL. What the staff here are miffed about is being trolled and spammed by someone we mistook for a 'friend'. I could post the IP's if you like. I can also get them confirmed by EZ Board. Please send our best wishes to Ian, he's a champ. SFUK
|
| digby SFUK member (9/19/00 9:58:10 am) 193.116.254.201 Reply | Edit | Del |
bandwagon
jumping
Julian, regarding bandwagon jumping: if the dispute were purely between SFUK & Choke, then mine and others involvement may indeed be seen as bandwagon jumping. however you have been one of the more verbal people on this thread what is your involvement - or are you doing a little jumping yourself come to think of it you do seem incredibly au fait with the details of the situation - so maybe you aren't jumping on the bandwagon after all???? I appreciate all the hard work that the admin at SFUK have done, and if trying to stick up for them should be seen as jumping on a bandwagon, then so be it - I really have no concern about such a label Digby
|
| Guru1 SFUK member (9/19/00 10:12:07 am) 195.92.32.83 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: bandwagon
jumping
"Your out for yourself man" As you have said before SFUK, your a non profit organisation, so, your right, your not, but others which are there to make money are, its simple. "You might be." Can you explain??? Just trying to stop a situation getting a lot worse, thats all, i gain nothing here. I understand SFUK are miffed, but wait and speak to Choke. I shall tell the Machine you wish him all the best. No Digby, my association with Choke is as follows: they sponsor my fighters, they are fuinding a show for me, we are collaborating with several American shows together, were organising video distribution, seminars and i also know Choke very well. Im sitting here trying to work out which way to take your comment Digby, perhaps before this gets out of hand, you would like to explain what you mean?
|
| SFUK SFUK Staff (9/19/00 10:33:05 am) 195.171.139.197 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: bandwagon
jumping
Hello Julian, here's the explanation you asked for. You said, "Your out for yourself man" I said "You might be." My reply refers to the fact that that's your opinion not ours. But now you have pointed that out we shall try not be so naive about claims to 'help the sport' in the future. Julian you said "This has been a mistake by Choke" We all agree with you 100%. We're saddened by it. Thanks, SFUK
Edited by: SFUK
Edited by: 9/19/00 10:33:05 am |
| SPENNA SFUK member (9/19/00 10:29:13 am) 212.85.20.2 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Why
are you doing this to us?
Can't we all just get along!! Spenna
|
| Guru1 SFUK member (9/19/00 10:41:29 am) 195.92.32.83 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Why
are you doing this to us?
lol, your not out for yourself because your a forum, a public forum, for the good of the sport right? Good for you guys! Choke although positioned to make money, can still help the sport, which they have done. It would be nice if this could be forgotten. i hope by the 29th of October this will settle and will no longer be an issue.
|
| Jardine SFUK member (9/19/00 10:42:00 am) 62.6.15.47 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Why
are you doing this to us?
Regarding the Iron Man comp:Choke were told by me that they could use the Iron Amn comp to launch there products,however they were aware that SFUK would be present and therfore would not be exclusive. R yea would have also been there,but craig had to be somewere else. With regards to someone haveing exclusivity at any of my showes I'm not Interested even if ther is money involved,you can all be there for free as I don't want any MMA site or retailer left out. SFUK have been there right from the start and have always stayed newtral,somtimes this has been very difficult for them,but they have again & again found ways to be so. I know Chas & Paul from choke very well, they are both great guys and I think mayby the victims of outside influences who wish nothing more than for all to go down so they can bask in there ever expanding ego's(you know who you are) I remain 100% behind SFUK,but I also hope Choke realise who there friends are.
|
| digby SFUK member (9/19/00 11:16:50 am) 193.116.254.201 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Why
are you doing this to us?
Julian with all due respect, how you take my comment is entirely up to you. however if it clarifies anything I was coming from this point of view - you have mentioned people jumping on the band wagon in this thread; whilst you are one of the most vocal people on this thread you didn't seem to think that you were jumping on the band wagon - now there must be some reason why you think it is different for you than it is for others, and I was merely wondering what that reason could be. let me know if this hasn't cleared it up for you. Digby
|
| droc
SFUK member (9/19/00 12:04:40 pm) 193.120.120.2 Reply | Edit | Del |
Do your
staff not know who they are working for?
From Rio Deniro Choke Zone -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just posted a message on Choke Zone and got blasted by some geezer called Chas. Seems like you can't express your opinions anymore! Always been a silent browser on this site but feel that I want a say now. Anyone else out there got a view on these Choke guys? Anyone get a free T at the Iron Man from Choke? I'd be very interested in finding out if what they say is true? Only to Later post..... Choke Zone -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take back what I said.have been contacted by 7 people who say that they have been helped by choke.sorry for doubting guys.good luck.no hard feelings? Followed by..... Chas at Choke SFUK member (9/7/00 11:30:11 am) Re: Choke Zone -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rio apologies accepted. Too busy to bear grudges. Introduce yourself at next show and I'll update you on all in the pipeline. At Iron Man comp, we met up with Lee Hasdell for the first time. Top guy. Also Fred Rado. Kamal Locke a class act. Paul from London Shootfighters, nice guy. Great day. Congratulations to Andy Jardine. Why didn't you just walk across the office Chas? Instead of asking him to introduce himself at the next show? Why don't you just admit to the underhanded tactics that have taken place? at least that way you can keep some semblance of respect Darragh If ya Smelllllllllllll what Droc is distillin'
|
| Guru1 SFUK member (9/19/00 12:40:45 pm) 195.92.32.83 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Do
your staff not know who they are working for?
Ok, this is a little weird now. I posted a message stating that SFUK & Choke should discuss this. Im now accused of being part of it???? And further more, am accused of doing it to further my own ill intentions??? Come on, this is @#%$ing ridiculous, there is no reason at all for this sort of crap.
|
| digby SFUK member (9/19/00 12:49:57 pm) 193.116.254.201 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Do
your staff not know who they are working for?
Julian 'And further more, am accused of doing it to further my own ill intentions???' I have not accussed you of this at all. I have questioned you involvement though, and as explained that was more in the light of your 'band wagon jumping' accusations, in particular as to why you felt you were excluded from that. Digby
|
| CubuD SFUK member (9/19/00 12:59:33 pm) 213.48.188.48 Reply | Edit | Del |
Bad publicity
Oh dear me. The points I would like to make from reading both sides are. 1) Exclusive... Did choke ASK for an exclusive space, or did they pay XXX amount "for an exclusive space". They may have got the wrong impression from Andy when he stated the financial compensation. Andy could have cleared this up by saying either "They asked WHY they weren't the exclusive sellers", or "The asked if they COULD BE the exclusive sellers". 2) IPs... Go to samspade.org/ Enter the 3 IP numbers, you should then (I think) be able to verify that the 3rd number is / is not an ISP. (It may be an IP in the same place that was assigned at a later date, hence the difference in ranges). If they are all from the same place, it could be anyone. If one ISP is owned by a different provider, then it is the same person posting under everyname originating at that IP. 3) Little children... If it turns out that the owner of the IPs is the same, it could be anyone from the same office. Choke must realise that these people are a) Wasting company time b) Representing their company in a negative way If they are going to act like little children, you should treat them as such. Install NET NANNY on all of the machines and forbid them from going to SFUK or the forums. 4) Underhanded... If it turns out that the owners of the IPs are different, then I think you should just ban the 3 IPs. I mentally create people to associate to a nickname so that I can identify with people I have never met. If people use so many names (and especially talk to themselves) they are just being a pain in the arse. Nothing wrong with more than 1 nickname if people realise that you are the same person. The only reason to do this otherwise is to deceive. 5) Finally... There are obvious gains to SFUK having it's quality lowered. The 2 best points of SFUK are (in my own preferred order) a) The forum b) The news page SFUK gets a lot of hits for the forum alone. In the internet world Hits = money. Especially if you sell products from your site (compulsive buying) or you sell add space. I have just been to ChokeAthletic.com, somewhere I have never been before and, surprise surprise, they have a forum. If all of the people from here went there instead it would be a great gain for them (financially). I am not saying that is what is happening (although my own personal oppinion after reading both sides is that it is), I am just clearing up the reason why someone WOULD do this (as I noticed a few times people asking "why would they ?") The end :-) Pete
|
| fullcirclemaa SFUK member (9/19/00 1:09:03 pm) 212.17.32.17 Reply | Edit | Del |
time out
hi guys, ive been trying to grasp what has been going on here and after 3 pages of to-ing and fro-ing between the different parties, there has been no conclusion. people have now been dragged into a situation where all they were doing was sticking up for their respective friends or business partners. it also has got to a stage where it is affecting the meeting on oct 29th - i'll tell you one thing, im not going to let that happen. i think the main problem is that Paul is not here to speak for himself - my advice would be to wait until he is. certain things simply do not make sense here - so lets wait till we have all the facts. also, im sure people are lurking around this forum laughing at us fighting amongst ourselves - lets show why MMA in the UK and Ireland will become a major force and get through this. Everyone has pretty much now had their say, so lets leave the public banter and have the parties involved discuss their grievances in the correct manner in a private environment. if either of the parties wish to make the outcome public, so be it. the sfuk guys all seem like really top guys, and from my own personal viewpoint have supported everything i have done. (many thanks!) i have also met the guys from choke and again they have been very supportive towards me and been very pleasant people. i dont mean to speak out of place, but i do think it is getting out of hand and will only serve to the detriment of the sport. just my honest opinion!!! regards rob
|
| PainInArse SFUK member (9/19/00 1:15:42 pm) 213.48.188.48 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Bad
publicity
I agree with Cubud --- Cubud
|
| PainInArse SFUK member (9/19/00 1:16:56 pm) 213.48.188.48 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Bad
publicity
Erm, did I sign my name Cubud ? Oh dear, How do I edit my post. --- Someone else (not Cubud) 
|
| CubuD SFUK member (9/19/00 1:22:37 pm) 213.48.188.48 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Bad
publicity
Actually, on a more serious note... I read through the Choke forum, and there are so many posts by the nicknames mentioned, all talking to each other. They were, indeed, all accounts created on the same day (how coincidental). ArmBarredTooOften was even welcomed (by himself ?), and it was mentioned how nasty people on SFUK had been to him. The main trait of all of them is how well they all seem to get on. xxx you are so right, yyy oh thankyou, at last someone who knows what they are talking about zzz you have been such a great help, I want to have sex with you ( ok, I got carried away on the last one 
)ps, PainInArse was me if you didn't guess 
|
| Jardine SFUK member (9/19/00 1:27:44 pm) 212.140.33.168 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Just
a thought
Julian this is for you;I never arranged any form of payment with paul for the iron man show,paul did however offer me £60 for the things he sold as he thought he did quite well,I didn,nt really want the money,but he insisted ,he probally wouldnt have offered me anything if he had not done well and I would not have asked him for anything as this was the arrangement from the beginning,now I suggest you get on with your mission to destroy MMA in the UK you have done a pretty good job so far bringing your political argumentative & decieving personlaity into everything. And by the way trying to pass the blame on to me regarding the issue of exclusivity at the Iron Man comp is exactly what I meen about you. Another example; you resently e-mailed me saying lets put all our differences aside and all get togethrer,then you are asking Gaz Roriston to ring you and asking him if he wants to join TMA(two faced)There are three reasons why I wont be there on the 29th october; 1; I wont go unless Lee Hasdell,Fred Rado & SFUK are going 2; My guy's are fighting in a Vale tudo fight the night before 3; What is it exactly that you have done? & why sould I assosiate myself with the likes of you. P.S ; I work together with anyone who has ettiquete & respect
|
| droc
SFUK member (9/19/00 1:34:15 pm) 193.120.120.2 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Bad
publicity
cubuD is Funny AS.... Rob, I understood that Paul and Charles were partners, and Charles does not seem to be a silent partner. So why is it that Paul is the only one who can answer this question? If ya Smelllllllllllll what Droc is distillin'
|
| Guru1 SFUK member (9/19/00 2:07:53 pm) 195.92.32.83 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Just
a thought
OK, i would have prefered to have kept this private and intended to do so until now. First things first Andy, this whole situation started after you stated you would be holding an IVC event. I got wind of it through Stephen Quadros, who wondered why you had posted it. I sent you a mail asking why you had done it, you didnt reply. I sent you another mail, again stating that questions were being asked by the IVC council and clarification was needed to stop any further action, you didnt respond. I was in a situation which could have been costly for both you and i, you didnt respond, i was asked to place a post stating you werent involved with the IVC as clarification. Twice i tried to contact you, you didnt reply. Not professional. You then go on to cheapen all the work i did to help Ian get into the UFC. Now, one of the main reasons for Ian's entry was that he beat Travis Fulton on your show, all credit to you for bringing top class fighters over to you. You may well have also spoken to John Perretti about having some of your guys over, but at the end of the day, it was me who contacted Phyllis, arranged all the paper work of which there was a great deal, signed contracts with SEG, arranged medicals, sent videos, CV's and photos and made numerous phone calls to the States to finalise things. Instead of acknowledging what i had done to help the situation, you basically berated me in public and undermind all that i had done. It didnt have to be like that Andy, you & I could have both benefited greatly. You then tried your best to stir up trouble between myself and Leigh Remedios manager. There was no reason for the post that you placed. Leighs manager was well aware of what we were doing for Leigh, he went so far to add additions to the contract Leigh signed with us and was consulted throughout, only allowing Leigh to sign when he was 100% satisfied. The situation with Gaz Roriston was not how you perceived it. I approached Gaz as Leigh had expressed an interest in fighting him in an event we are holding in the early part of next year. During the conversation, i told him a little about what TMA were doing with other fighters, i.e signing them up and helping to promote them abroad due to the contacts i have made. Any fighter who signs with us is free to fight in any event they wish. Without going into the terms and conditions in great detail, there is no stipulation that states exclusivity to TMA events. Our fighters have fought on your shows Andy; Leigh and Keith in the Iron man and will continue to do so as long as you require them. All we are doing is giving them an oppotunity to travel abroad and fight in some of the bigger events if they have the potential to do so. You, above all people know how hard it is to get fighters from the UK accepted into non UK events. As far as my mission to destroy MMA in the UK goes, its kind of back fired considering the amount of success the fighters are having right now, what with Ian fighting in his third UFC shortly, not to mention Pancrase, Leigh fighting in HookNShoot and in November taking a team of fighters over to Russia to participate in a very large show. I also hope to other several individuals the chance to fight in Pancrase shortly. Enough people involved in MMA in the UK speak to me on a regular basis and can vouch for my integrity and honesty when it comes this business. I have made mistakes and im sure i will make them again, i will certianly not be the only one to do so. I sent you the mail Andy as i genuinely wish to put all differences aside and once you do get to know me properly, perhaps we can go onto big and better things? However and this is a big However, if you dont want to put things aside, if you want to continue to undermine what i do and continue these pointless hostilities, im not going to skulk away into the shadows and forget all about MMA. I've only been involved for around a year now and in that time i have met some brilliant people, people who can now call and rely on as friends. Over the next few months i intend to meet more MMA enthusiasts and hopefully they will become friends also. Im not going away, i intend to see TMA through to complete success or the other thing which i dont like to mention. One way or the other, TMA and Julian are going to be around for a long time. Those who know me, know me. Those that think they do, dont.
|
| fullcirclemaa SFUK member (9/19/00 2:11:10 pm) 212.17.32.17 Reply | Edit | Del |
aaaaarrrrrggggghhhhhh!!!!
sorry. droc - you know what i was trying to get across!! andy jardine - fred rado and lee hasdell are 2 of the guys i really wanted to attend this meeting along with yourself. sfuk, hopefully, will attend when this is sorted out. its obvious you dont want to deal directly with julian and the feeling is probably mutual (pure speculation on my part!) but this meeting is the ideal situation : i.e. you are both meeting on neutral grounds. if you do attend and you think it is a waste of time - leave! Im sure people will be happy that you put aside those grievances for a day and made the effort. me for one. rob.
|
| chiswick SFUK member (9/19/00 3:29:53 pm) 62.253.68.209 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: aaaaarrrrrggggghhhhhh!!!!
from an outsiders perspective, you should all forget about it and stop using multiple names and go on as usual
|
| droc
SFUK member (9/19/00 4:18:02 pm) 193.120.120.2 Reply | Edit | Del |
Missing
the point anyone??
The problem is not the use of multiple screen names, it's not even the misuse of multiple screen names. It seems that Choke have been using multiple screen names to promote themselves and to criticise this site. (Armbarredtooften and Rio Deniro are 2 obvious examples) They have also apparently been using similar tactics offline. All the while smiling and being friendly with SFUK. The problem here is abuse of trust. JMHO Darragh If ya Smelllllllllllll what Droc is distillin'
|
| Jardine SFUK member (9/19/00 4:36:40 pm) 212.140.23.39 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Just
a thought
Of course how silly of me to think that you could be wrong, it seems you are trying to switch the tables once again, let me see if I have got this right: I promote Ian freeman on two shows, Lee Hasdell promotes him on one show,I arrange the Travis Fulton fight, Ian wins(no sign of Julias or TMA yet) Ian rings me and tells me he is ''replacing''(emphasis added)Travis at UFC 24,Ian has no corner men, I ask if he wants me to come over, he say's'that would be great'Ian loses and we come back, no mention of me or Alex doing his corner. Lee Remedios fights his first Vale Tudo fight on my show against one of Ian Freemans fighters Craig Mitchell a good fighter but obviously not good enough for TMA. Keith Dace loses to Kamal Locke on the Same show, but isn't contacted by TMA yet,however Kamal is. Lee Remedios's 2nd VT fight against Louis Beale on Lee Hasdells show; A victory for the TMA fighter who has been trained by Floyd Brown(who's undermining who) Previous to this Keith Dace Defeats the well renown Dexter Casey, a major victory for him, he is now approched by TMA who want to share this victory with him(feeling a bit naked yet Julias). Now we come to Gaz Roriston, Trained and promoted by me, this bit is quite clear and can't really be twisted to much by you as the fact remains quite basic and I'm sure everyone remembers your post about him wanting to contact you, you even said just now you were explaining how TMA works, Why? you know he's one of my fighters, but you obviously don't care!!!! IVC; It seems like what ever i'm doing you want to do it aswell, have it and stick with it for christ's sake so I can get on with something else that does'nt involve you interfering in any way. where have I undermined you here in any way? I promote many fighters, but only lay claim to the ones I train and always mention other fighters trainers out of respect for all of their time and effort that they put into their fighters.
|
| Choke SFUK member (9/19/00 5:22:38 pm) 204.1.91.167 Reply | Edit | Del |
Live from
New Orleans
It's a real shame that you guy's choose to look at the smaller picture when there are clearly bigger fish to fry. I'll be back from the states on the 25th and will answer to anyone who wants a response. Until then, I'm off to train in the sun. Paul
|
Pooch
 SFUK member (9/19/00 5:57:07 pm) 62.7.105.212 Reply | Edit | Del |
Re: Live
from New Orleans
It seems funny that when the sh1t hits the fan, none of Chokes office staff, (ArmBarredToOften, Rio Deniro, Ginger Gomez etc) want to come on here and add there comments, perhaps they are to busy what with Paul being away. If you are not involved Julian I think you should open your eyes, it is obvious that there is something very wrong here. But then again I am probably just "Jumping On The Bandwagon" SFUK have always tried to help everyone involved in MMA and have always done there best to stay neutral, they do not deserve to be treated in this way, Business or not. Pooch
Edited by: Pooch
|
| Page 1 2 3 | << Prev Topic Next Topic >> |